Reporting player "Gno_oty" for hosting misleading games regarding "no rules" settings.

[Gnoo]

The xD-Gate

Seems my "xD" triggered some offense, but you know I throw "xD" around like confetti. During this short match alone I used it 6 times [lo_ok @ Exhibit_3]. It’s my go-to reaction for almost everything. To interpret something toxic into those two letters and use 'em as evidence that I was "enjoying your unawareness" is quite a stretch... xD

It was my response to Wadah_Ali’s question,

"What is that heavy ram?"

—which I interpreted as a lack of knowledge about the unit itself, not as rules-related at all.

Given that Wadah joined my host just a few seconds before the game started, and four seconds after Batu triggered the last "No Rules" taunt [proven in Exhibit_0 & Exhibit_5]. Any confusion on Wadah’s part concerning rules would be understandable. However, this is irrelevant since you, Mona, were actively engaged in the chat during the last "No Rules" taunt, unlike Wadah, who was a last minute observer.

That you initially mistook Wadah for one of your opponents suggests that you weren’t entirely focused that evening all together. We all have those days, right? I was probably just as tired as you were & things added up.

The thought of using the Observer Chat to remind everyone that it was a "No Rules" game didn’t even cross my mind, because I was certain everyone already knew. It shows that I didn’t see the need to reiterate something that seemed obvious.

[Exhibit_1]

Exhibit 1 - [o_r]Mona&IndieVS.Batu&Ice[^4](2024_08_17)_(19_24).e2s

[Exhibit_1] full playback Mona&Indie VS. Batu&Ice (no rules)

(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 28 times

Pro_of 1:
If you watch my playback with my camera perspective turned on, you’ll see that I wasn’t focused solely on what you were doing in order to allegeldy "enjoy your unawareness". I wasn’t even paying attention to your civilization or strategy at all—I was jumping around the map, & only noticed Batu’s ram when shortly before Wadah & you. Besides, it’s against the rules for an observer to interfere in the game by warning players about what’s happening on the battlefield.

When the ram reached your Outpost construction, I was actually impressed by how quickly you deleted it to save the resources. I thought you would then use your civilians to destroy the ram & still win easily. I never imagined that you would "do the Kiffke" & quikly quit without even trying.

Now, I recognise that it happened due to a misunderstanding & your frustration about it. I’m very sorry for my part in causing that—not only for you and everyone involved, but also for myself, as I would have loved to see the epic match it could have been if you were aware of the no-rules.


The "N|o_R|ules" Taunt Protocol

So, there’s a protocol requiring the host to send the "No Rules" taunt right after the game starts? Honestly, I had no idea.

Typing "No Rules" in the chat before the game starts has always been efficient, and when experienced players click ready, it’s assumed they’re on board.
I always double-check with new players, though, to ensure they really grasp what 'No Rules' means—though it's usually the opposite with 'yes_rules' games, since newbies often assume no rules by default... xD

But making this the standard isn't a bad idea. Could you automate that? Introducing a specific "No Rules" setting for hosts in the option for starting troops could work, with a unique starting unit, like a gardener or a slave, to indicate it's a no-rules game. Would be great if you added an automated taunt at the beginning—though if that’s possible, then the no-rule-unit is not needed anymore... xD

From what you’re describing, it sounds like the taunt wasn’t triggered within a minute before the game started. I have to disagree—I clearly saw "no rules" in the chat, and the taunt was triggered. Maybe you PC was muted? Or maybe I was experiencing that unofficial patch syndrome where you hear the taunt just by reading it… xD

Or maybe the current "No Rules" taunt is too gentle? It’s time to give it a more noticeable, shrill AI voice scream!?

I also wasn’t aware that only games with "No Rules" in the title could be played without rules. It makes sense in theory, especially for player Coo1, who mainly hosts "no rules" games, but it seems completely impractical for most players, who usually spontaniously ask to switch to no-rules.


About That Epoch Advantage

Earlier that day, we tested how many epochs Icetimeable needed to be competitive and a 4-epoch advantage seemed fair!

Exhibit_2: Playback - Gno_oty vs. Icetimeable

Exhibit 2 - GnoVS.Ice[^4](2024_08_17)_(17_47).e2s

[Exhibit_2] playback Gno VS. Ice (4-epoch-advantage)

(2.93 MiB) Downloaded 28 times

Pro_of 2:
I’ve played this set myself. So the idea I’d impose this as a disadvantage specifically for you just doesn’t hold up.

Why would I want to deliberately make YOU lose anyways?

At first, I also placed Batu one epoch higher to offset the less skilled teammate disadvantage. You specifically requested Batu’s epoch to be lowered from 7 to 6, and I complied, even though I thought that small advantage was reasonable. Your objection shows you were aware of the settings, so bringing it up as an issue now surprises me.
I understand that "No Rules" games can enhance the value of the epoch-advantage & might require a different approach, but in this case, we’re talking about Icetimeable, who I’ve never seen use spies—especially not in the many "No Rules" games from that day with same epoch differences.

Pro_of 3:
Lo_oking at [Exhibit_1: Playback – Mona&Indie VS. Batu&Ice (no rules)] how the match went on after your exit, you'll see that Icetimeable didn't even build a university, while Indie to_ok revanch for you & basically crushed Batu. xD

Exhibit_3: Full chat log, after Mona left.

[Exhibit_3] Full chat log, after Mona left (screenshot).

Exhibit_3 - full chatlog (screen) .png (39.51 KiB) Viewed 780 times

Exhibit 3 - full chatlog(2024_08_17)_(19_24).txt

[Exhibit_3] Full chat log, after Mona left (txt-file).

(2.31 KiB) Downloaded 26 times

Pro_of 4:
After you left, everyone was confused about how the "No Rules" slipped past

Spoiler

ONLY

you.

Added after 23 minutes 17 seconds:
What Really Happened – Debunking Monas Key Claims

1. You claim to have minimized the game & missed the "No Rules" messages due to chat spam.
2. You insist the "No Rules" setting wasn’t mentioned "by anyone" while you were present.

Here's what happened within 1 minute before the game start:

Exhibit_4 – Screenshot:

Pro_of 5:
At 19:23:23, Mona types, "don't seem to help you," - game wasn’t minimized.

Exhibit_5 – Screenshot:

Pro_of 6:
At 19:23:35, Batu reminded everyone with the "no rules" taunt.

Pro_of 7:
At 19:23:39, Wadah joined, AFTER Batu's last "no rules" reminder.

Pro_of 8:
At 19:23:50, Mona clicked ready - game wasn’t minimized.

Exhibit_6 – Screenshot:

Proof 9:
At 19:23:57, Mona objected—again, showing the game wasn’t minimized.

Exhibit_1 & Exhibit_3 – Playback & Chatlog:
Pro_of 9:
The game started at 19:24, proving you were fully engaged before the game start.

Sorry, but your claim that you missed the "no rules" taunt & setting because the game was minimized or "No Rules" setting wasn’t mentioned "by anyone" while you were present. doesn’t hold water.


My Confession, But...

It was never my intention to mislead you,
but I didn't personally confirm with you about the "no rules" agreement & mistakenly assumed your clicking "ready" after the "no rules" taunt meant you were on bord & fully aware.
MEA CULPA!

I agree that the host should ensure everyone understands the settings, but there’s also some responsibility on the players’ side if afk or minimizing the game & reading "no_rules" you should have clearified! Repeatedly asking everyone as a host can get stressful, especially when hosting for hours as a favor.

After hosting many no-rules games that day, myself and the other players may have gotten a bit too relaxed with communicating the no-rules & kinda shifted into an "auto no-rules mode" by that point, while it was only your second "No Rules" game.

For any guilt that falls on me, BUT Mona, you were actively engaged in the chat during the "no rules" taunt. You clicked "READY," and it seemed clear that everyone understood the settings. I definitely would have asked you personally if I thought there was a chance it might have slipped past you!

I’m wondering if you might have missed the "No Rules" notification for that privious game as well?—the one you quickly quit because you didn’t have the patience to wait out what was likely a shortterm lag from player Ruzbeh.


A Side Note to Your Quote

Quoting Mona:

"He creates such "rules" in his hosted games randomly."

No, let’s clear this up:
Before you joined that first match, Mona, I was actually hosting a "No Rules" rematch with the same teams and settings as before. But when Batu ghosted, you jumped into the slut & disrupted the planned rematch by not switching to observer.

I didn’t ask you to go obs because I was genuinely glad to see you play for a change, but now I regret not sticking to the original plan. Had you obsed that rematch, you would’ve easily noticed it was part of a "No Rules" game marathon & we surely could have avoided this mess.

Conclusion & Final Thoughts

I hope this clears up the situation from my perspective.
I’ve always strived to host fair & fun games, & it’s regrettable that a misunderstanding led to such serious accusation.

Moving forward, I’ll just avoid to keep on hosting for others when I’m getting tired & potentially "on host tilt" to prevent any further incidents as such.

Thanks to both of you, who to_ok the time to read this full doctoral thesis on my side of the story... xD


Cheers,
o_O

[Dr.MonaLisa]

Seems my "xD" triggered some offense, but you know I throw "xD" around like confetti. During this short match alone I used it 6 times [lo_ok @ Exhibit_3]. It’s my go-to reaction for almost everything. To interpret something toxic into those two letters and use 'em as evidence that I was "enjoying your unawareness" is quite a stretch... xD

This is confusing. According to the Chat Log, you only used "xD", when you noticed the ram.

If you watch my playback with my camera perspective turned on, you’ll see that I wasn’t focused solely on what you were doing in order to allegeldy "enjoy your unawareness". I wasn’t even paying attention to your civilization or strategy at all—I was jumping around the map, & only noticed Batu’s ram when shortly before Wadah & you. Besides, it’s against the rules for an observer to interfere in the game by warning players about what’s happening on the battlefield.

It's not forbidden to correct players, especially in unrated games. In rated games the chat from observers would be blocked. It's perfectly normal to write "Remember, it's no_rules" when you notice the mistakes on any player's end. It's especially important when you're the host player that can get blamed for the game settings, host quit, connection problem and many other things.

When the ram reached your Outpost construction, I was actually impressed by how quickly you deleted it to save the resources. I thought you would then use your civilians to destroy the ram & still win easily. I never imagined that you would "do the Kiffke" & quikly quit without even trying.

I seen the ram already coming, and I would have killed it, but it made no sense for me to continue when the "rules were broken". Especially ALI's message made me sure about it, because I first thought that IndieRock sent it (possibly he used red color), so I didn't see a sense to continue this bullshit.

So, there’s a protocol requiring the host to send the "No Rules" taunt right after the game starts? Honestly, I had no idea.

That's what I'm doing personally (and some other players as well), so I thought it was a clear example. But obviously we don't have written rules about it. And instead of writing rules I prefer to automate things, so maybe it's just something to focus on, even thought from my perspective its a big waste of time.

Typing "No Rules" in the chat before the game starts has always been efficient, and when experienced players click ready, it’s assumed they’re on board.

It depends. When you're joining EE2 for the first time after a few weeks of your inactivity, it's harder to notice things as easy as when playing a few games in row. That's why hosting "uncommon" settings should be done with a caution. I remember asking every player personally, by typing their nickname, whenever I made some custom rules. This minimizes the risk of "rage-quits" and makes games just fair.

But making this the standard isn't a bad idea. Could you automate that? Introducing a specific "No Rules" setting for hosts in the option for starting troops could work, with a unique starting unit, like a gardener or a slave, to indicate it's a no-rules game. Would be great if you added an automated taunt at the beginning—though if that’s possible, then the no-rule-unit is not needed anymore... xD

This situation inspired me to automate this process. However, it's not easy. I currently don't know how to check which player is the host player using the GameHelper.dll, although I can monitor messages using the Audio Taunts function, so I can detect whenever a player types "yes_rules" or "no_rules". This would allow me to send a custom message, together with the audio taunt on game start, automatically. However, I also don't want to confuse random players who are playing with their friends, wives, sisters or gayfriends by showing messages that they might not understand or might misinterpret as punishable behavior. I remember reading questions on the Support Chat regarding punishments for budling the Tree of Life or the Tree of Death for the population hack. Some players treated the tooltip warning seriously as if it was being monitored and punishable, since this only referred to public games like from "active" community players, and nobody would care about what they do in their private games at all.

From what you’re describing, it sounds like the taunt wasn’t triggered within a minute before the game started. I have to disagree—I clearly saw "no rules" in the chat, and the taunt was triggered. Maybe you PC was muted? Or maybe I was experiencing that unofficial patch syndrome where you hear the taunt just by reading it… xD

When the game is minimized, after maximizing it, the first missed audio taunt is played, but not all others. It's intentional behavior which I found as the most efficient. It would be bad to hear the mass audio spam on maximizing the game, as well as making the last sent audio taunt would be harder to implement. So this way I probably heard something else, but also I watched YouTube on the second monitor, so obviously I didn't have a full attention on sounds. This doesn't change the fact that the useful information about rules was missing from the started game chat, when my attention was finally on the game.

Why would I want to deliberately make YOU lose anyways?

Possible infection with Dr.MonaLisa Derangement Syndrome: https://ee2.eu/help/drmonalisa/#DMLDS

At first, I also placed Batu one epoch higher to offset the less skilled teammate disadvantage. You specifically requested Batu’s epoch to be lowered from 7 to 6, and I complied, even though I thought that small advantage was reasonable. Your objection shows you were aware of the settings, so bringing it up as an issue now surprises me.

That's actually a different story. I was recently viewing some old topics (when fixed the Spy Glitch): viewtopic.php?p=19502#p19502
And I remembered how long ban Batuzay had for glitching and cheating in every possible game he played in the past. Batuzay was the biggest glitcher of all times, where he used resources and spy glitch in every possible game. He didn't play a single game fair back in days. Therefore it's not a secret that I have no sympathy to him, and that I still feel some disgust when I see his nickname. Therefore, I just found it disgusting to give him advantage in any way. I simply didn't want to make him happy. This lack of sympathy actually resulted in a very quick decision to ban for breaking rules as soon as I noticed it. So yes, the review of the old cases for one of the latest updates made me remember some bad things that happened on EE2 because of him. That's why I didn't want him to have a higher epoch, even though it could be reasonable. I simply think he doesn't deserve any special treatments after how big mess he was doing in the community before 2015s.

At 19:23:35, Batu reminded everyone with the "no rules" taunt.

This argument was already explained multiple times. Batu is not a host player, so he can be safely ignored. Especially I remember him writing such things in the other hosts where the host didn't even intend to host "no rules" game. So nobody can base on his messages. It's host that needs to confirm it.

At 19:23:23, Mona types, "don't seem to help you," - game wasn’t minimized.

This is quite weird analysis. I frequently (if not most of the time) maximize the game for just 2 seconds and then minimize it again. So it's actually easy to miss things. Of course it's my problem, but due to long waiting times for games in EE2, it's quite normal for me to do it. Still a reminder on game start would be useful.

It's also worth to mention that we played a game before with the lagger ruzbeh that had 6 seconds waiting lag every 3 seconds or so, and I also quit that game because it was annoying to play. I also wasn't aware that that previous game was "no rules". So I suppose when I joined a new game, it also wasn't mentioned by the host, just Batuzay at some point. I think this lack of information standards need to be corrected, because sooner or later these issues will happen again.

For any guilt that falls on me, BUT Mona, you were actively engaged in the chat during the "no rules" taunt. You clicked "READY," and it seemed clear that everyone understood the settings. I definitely would have asked you personally if I thought there was a chance it might have slipped past you!

Not a message from you. As I said, non-host messages regarding rules are worth nothing (although it's maybe nice that he tried to mention it and do hosts' job). But Batuzay used to send such messages in other yes_rules games, against the host's will (e.g. Kennet's games if I remember correctly), so my brain possibly learnt to ignore it too.

I’m wondering if you might have missed the "No Rules" notification for that privious game as well?—the one you quickly quit because you didn’t have the patience to wait out what was likely a shortterm lag from player Ruzbeh.

I didn't know it was no rules in the previous game. And I remember joining it "last minute", so possibly nothing was sent about it as well. It's non-standard that after few years of r-r games with "yes_rules" suddenly "no_rules" are being played. If this was not the first "no_rules" game in a row, then putting it to the game title should be a standard and wouldn't hurt anyone. Therefore missing "no rules" in game name is a very bad thing considering it was not the first game of this type that day.


To summary:
I think the thing that triggered me the most is the fact that I will need to focus on another annoying automation to solve the "no rules" problem forever. It's not easy to do all these things by "memory addresses", so I'm really annoyed that I'll have to do another non-important research in the game to fix it. That's why I am getting frustrated that people always depend on automations instead of doing things correctly themselves. But at the end this will be a good thing... it's just annoying to spend so much time for a very tiny multiplayer community. The size of it should actually make it easier to respect some standards, especially from long-time-playing players, but I simply cannot depend on anybody else than myself.

Btw:
It's a bit confusing that you have these out-of-context screenshots before the game was started... Like I personally don't see anything that would deserve screenshotting there. In the normal investigation such behavior could be interpreted as building a false alibi to defend yourself. Like what is the reason of 3 or 4 screenshots in that case? Nothing unusual was written on the chats. It seems very fishy to be honest. I am personally taking a lot of screenshots "just in case", but for this one I personally see no reason to save the chat, because there's nothing unusual going on. From my perspective it actually looks like building an evidence that "no rules" was mentioned, but not mentioning it yourself (as a host player).

[Dr.MonaLisa]

OK, I updated the UP15_GameHelper.dll to monitor for:

- Yes rules
- Yes_rules
- No rules
- No_rules

messages from the host player.

If somebody could, please test this DLL (unpack and overwrite existing one in your EE2 folder):

//File deleted

It works as follows:

When host sends none of these messages in their hosted game, then no audio nor additional message will be shown after game start (not to confuse random players by reading default yes_rules).
When any of the rules message is sent, then the latest one is treated with priority and shown right after game launch together with the matching audio taunt.

Only host's messages should be respected, so please test and confirm it.

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[Dr.MonaLisa]

Minor Update 160018 has been released: https://ee2.eu/patch/changes/#160018

[...]
— Multiplayer: Added a message about game rules at the start of the game. It shows if the host player types "yes rules" or "no rules" in chat before the game starts.
[...]

I think it should prevent similar issues in the future.

With the new system, I guess we can drop this topic and assume that the lack of this feature caused problems.