I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

ImagePost unofficial information here, talk gossips and crap, but only in this subforum!
Post Reply
User avatar
Dr.MonaLisa
High Representative
Posts: 8693
Joined: 17 Jun 2010, 11:21
Location: Poland
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 105 times

I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

Post by Dr.MonaLisa »

Hello.

I need to describe an unfortunate situation that happened today on EE4 MoD Discord.

The EE4 MoD developer has censored / removed my messages where I was trying to help players with the problems.

My final message was also removed:
Listen, I don't want any fight, but some things need to be clarified, and best if it's public. I only tried to help and answered to some questions about the crash. I provided the screenshot to the crash code in assembly. I think it's a totally normal thing to do. Another thing I answered for the question about which fine contains the entries to translate. I couldn't know it's not supposed to be translated. But instead of removing messages, you can quote and write: "it doesn't need to be translated". Someone is spending time trying to actually HELP the other people, but you want all questions to go by you on private. This is fine, but you sent 2 of the same questions to me in this channel, just because I didn't answer for 5 minutes (I was in toilet). Then you tried to show like it's me "flooding" the channel, but it's you who asked me something. When I answered you deleted EVERYTHING, and you teached me on private message that I should not discuss these things in public channels. And at the end you're like "I'm the admin here". You know what, I'm not conflictious person and I'm always helping with EE2-related cases, but what you're doing is totally disrespectful towards me.
In short I'll show the timeline of the case:

1. RGV1 has contacted me to report a "problem" with 1.5 patch (developers version) included on the newest version of EE4 mod. I quickly verified the crash based on the "EIP" crash code 0050dc04h, that it's caused by the missing text entry for AI taunts in the English version translation.

2. After it was confirmed, I posted a message in the EE4 MoD Discord channel, to other users who were asking about the same problem.

3. After that RGV1 asked me new questions in private messages. I didn't not reply for 5 minutes (toilet), and he copied the same questions in that Discord channel for me to answer. I answered.

4. Next thing, RGV1 "accused me" of talking about bugs with other users, and "taught me" that all problems should go "through him":
Screenshot 2021-07-31 011804.png
Screenshot 2021-07-31 011804.png (108.19 KiB) Viewed 7105 times
proof of it:
Screenshot 2021-07-31 012225.png
Screenshot 2021-07-31 012225.png (18.41 KiB) Viewed 7105 times
... this would be all fine if there wasn't a huge hypocrisy in it. He was the one asking the same questions in two places (private messages and that channel).

5. The next thing was my fault. Instead of giving up on this guy, there was another question from the community about the file required to translate. I gave the details after RGV1 ignored the question. This message was very quickly removed. The reason of it was that he had a different plan (removing text entries instead of translating). But for God's sake, it's disallowed to quote a message to clarify things? It's fine to censorship the whole Discord and disrespectfully remove messages?

So here it continued:
Screenshot 2021-07-31 012604.png
Screenshot 2021-07-31 012604.png (143.06 KiB) Viewed 7105 times
A cherry on a cake is that "HE IS THE ADMINISTRATOR", so he can remove posts, do whatever he wants.

(These messages were actually to be deleted, because it was a total off-topic, but triggered by the illegal events made earlier).


I'm not a cocky person, but knowing how much I have done for the community I will not accept being censored on any community related service. This is totally disrespectful to remove somebody's messages.

During all years when I'm moderating forums, chats, discords - I have not removed any legal player's message. The freedom of speech is very important.

I know that any admin can make their own rules and delete whatever they want, but users (like me) don't need to agree with it.


What I decided is to:

- Block EE4 MoD developer from my contact form.
- Block EE4 MoD developer from UP1.5 Discord, as an answer to the messages censorship.
- Provide help to players regarding the UP1.5 Developers Version installation, but without extra help EE4 MoD installation specific. Just the basics as they are.

What will be kept:

- The EE4 MoD download links will be kept on the EE2.eu Downloads Page, but not promoted anymore on EE2News Media (Twitter, Facebook).
- Forum account nor EE4 MoD topics will not be removed. I will never intend to harm the community, even if I disagree with developer's behaviour.


For these thinking that I overreacted with this topic:
There was a similar situation where I got attacked with disrespectful messages from EE4 MoD developer around 1 year ago. Since as I said I'm not conflictious by nature, I managed to resolve the problems in a diplomatic way and continued helping with UP1.5 Developers Version integration to EE4 MoD.
So it's not like I didn't give the second chance.

But I won't waste my time for the other EE2 mods if I'm getting censored by the Developer in a worst possible way.

At the end I would like to add that I respect RGV1's work, and I think that what he has done with the mod is great. Unfortunately, I realized that I can not expect the same from him.

Here's the proof of the situation before:
Spoiler
Screenshot 2021-07-31 015239.png
Screenshot 2021-07-31 015239.png (51.41 KiB) Viewed 7105 times
Screenshot 2021-07-31 015322.png
Screenshot 2021-07-31 015322.png (79.26 KiB) Viewed 7105 times
Screenshot 2021-07-31 015354.png
Screenshot 2021-07-31 015354.png (98.48 KiB) Viewed 7105 times
This topic was created as a base for players who're accusing me of "not cooperating" with the other modders.
I was asked for example by Gonzalo, why I'm NOT HELPING WITH 1.5 for EE4 MoD, while I was actually doing it. Having a topic like this explains why I won't do such cooperation with certain people in the future.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains

User avatar
Scorpiopt
Posts: 5
Joined: 28 Sep 2019, 13:08
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

Post by Scorpiopt »

Blocking him is a wise decision , he wants to control the narrative and in that way shift blame on the problem , its a mod ffs its not like he is operating on a patient or something .
its such minor issue that escalated because people cant take criticism or blame

I have no issue with the resolution dont promote his mod , keep blocked and that's it
User avatar
Dr.MonaLisa
High Representative
Posts: 8693
Joined: 17 Jun 2010, 11:21
Location: Poland
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

Post by Dr.MonaLisa »

Scorpiopt wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 13:44 its such minor issue that escalated because people cant take criticism or blame
Just to make things clear. I did not critic anyone nor blame. I answered with details about the cause of the crash to users who were reporting it on Discord.

He then removed my answer with the crash details in code, and also the questions from users reporting this problem.

I still have problems understanding this thing fully. I thought places like Discord are actually for such discussions. But it seems like he's treating them as some informative website, where all messages need to be approved by the Admin.

Well, he has rights to do it so. But my reply is suitable to the actions taken against my freedom of expression.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains
User avatar
Scorpiopt
Posts: 5
Joined: 28 Sep 2019, 13:08
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

Post by Scorpiopt »

not saying you did but for him thats what your doing , it clearly shows that anything that points to a mistake in is part , is a big no no to him
User avatar
RGV1
Posts: 115
Joined: 13 Aug 2011, 11:22
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

Post by RGV1 »

I understood you.
Delete my account.
Last edited by RGV1 on 30 Aug 2023, 19:42, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Scorpiopt
Posts: 5
Joined: 28 Sep 2019, 13:08
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

Post by Scorpiopt »

RGV1 wrote: 28 Aug 2023, 13:05
Dr.MonaLisa wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 13:52 Well, he has rights to do it so. But my reply is suitable to the actions taken against my freedom of expression.
Hello!
How much attention for a little person like me.
It was just a misunderstanding. And emotions on my part. Nothing more.


Mona.
My discord is really like a blog, like a heavily moderated social network account. I'll try to explain.

I deleted not only Monalisa's messages, but also my messages and Sowrii666's messages.
I deleted before, other people's messages and other participants. I have always done it. Reason for removal:

The reason for the removal is simple: putting EE4 in a negative light. In our case, the discussion of problems (crashes and bugs) EE4 mod. This discussion turned into an argument. This is a negative for EE4.
I remove any negative that appears in EE4. Yes, this is a kind of censorship. I do not deny. Why am I doing this? I'll try to explain.

I have my own experience with the community. It is mostly from Russia. There are many trolls here, it is customary to scold for any trifle, to cling to any failure. One mistake - and you will be mixed with shit. And then prove that you are not guilty. That's why tough moderation and tough censorship. And the discord server is like a blog of one person. This is how I live, you could say. I hope you understand the attack of the trolls who cling to any failure of the mod-patcher, I think this is familiar to you.

Mona.
I deleted our correspondence, but I left words of gratitude to you!
My message: "I am grateful to monalise for finding a bug - I stayed." - it remained there for a long time, despite further disagreements. It stayed for years. I was grateful for your help with EE4. I'm not belittling you for bringing the EE4 + 1.5 patch together. Please take this into account.
I have always been grateful to you for your help.

Yes, I was offended that you found the bug before me. With their amazing program. I will not hide. Happens. Creative people are emotional.

Yet.
If I insulted you, offended, belittled merits - I'm sorry. That's what I'm saying, I'm sorry. Straight and open. I will soon be 40 years old, I do not want to be in disagreement. And I don't want to be at odds.
Know that I always respected you for what you did for EE2. I still love this game, and I'm glad that Mona Lisa is doing EE2.

Last thing.
Probably on this forum, the only way to talk to you. Others are not available to me.
I asked the guys from EE1 to convey to you my point of view on the war in Ukraine. I don't know, they told you. I dare say again. I am against the war, Mona!, I have always been against Putin, against the invasion of the Russian army into Ukraine. For me, the war is a tragedy. Many people from Ukraine helped to create EE4, I was friends with them a lot, and this war is now a big disaster. We here in Russia cannot protest. Our personal opinion is forbidden - a fine, deprivation of work, even a prison term. This is a big tragedy.

I have retired from EE2. I don't do EE4 anymore. This is history for me. I didn't allow the EE4 plus(+) guys to create sequels - because I want to leave EE4 the way the developer (RGV1) intended it to be. For EE4 to remain distinctive and original, only this. Just a whim of the author, but I hope I have the right to it.

Lots of narcissism there pal, specially since your not allowing orders to continue your work.
Your not above criticism deleting negative feedback means your clearly weak and think of yourself has the god of coding, your not stop behaving like it, so fucking petty it is pathetic.
Specially since your work is using assets not made by you...
Treating bug reports has something bad is just shit behaviour
Censorship is pathetic no matter the excuse.
User avatar
Dr.MonaLisa
High Representative
Posts: 8693
Joined: 17 Jun 2010, 11:21
Location: Poland
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: I have officially interrupted the cooperation with the EE4 MoD developer

Post by Dr.MonaLisa »

Dear RGV1.

This topic was created, because many players were continuously asking me questions such as: "why don't you help to EE4 guys". I was often reading messages on the support chat, discord, or even private messages on EE2 1.5 Facebook profile. Some people sounded rude, like blaming me that EE4 mod doesn't work as well on their newest Windows versions as the "normal" patch 1.5. These accusations were false, because I was always trying to help EE4 mod users. I provided the Developers Version of UP1.5 since it's first release. Even though the interest in Developers version wasn't that big, I never skipped any update and always provided the most recent compatibility fixes for all users:
Screenshot 2023-09-03 021342.png
Screenshot 2023-09-03 021342.png (172.13 KiB) Viewed 2995 times
Not to mention the special features developed for the Developers version. For example, since its first Developers Version release (around 2014?) I added a feature allowing mods developers to configure UP1.5 to check for updates in the launcher. Described here: https://ee2.eu/patch/developers/#important
Since EE4 mod was the only one actively developed mod for EE2, it's obvious that all my actions were focused on helping EE4 players and nobody else.

For over 5 years, my work was totally ignored by the EE4 team, and I was still reading often "angry" messages from players that I am not cooperating with EE4 team... I made several attempts to contact you on the forum, facebook (if I remember correctly) and even VK. Nobody on your side was interested in configuring the Developers Version to be fully integrated with EE4 mod.

After like 6 years, I contacted you again and this time we successfully started integrating the patch to your mod.
Unfortunately, this wasn't a good experience. Even though I was patient and tried to explain everything in details, you started complicating things like demanding features to be removed from the developers version (which couldn't be done due that most of things were assembled in the game executable that has things shared with the normal version of the patch). I couldn't understand why somebody wants the cycle time of day feature removed, or crowns system, or doesn't want to allow users to have longer ceasefires. The population thing was quite understandable. I explained that these options could simply be hidden by editing the EE2X_hdrs.zip file. When that part was finished you started being negative about file "dbwidget_f5.csv" which was needed for many UP1.5 features and even the Multiplayer Lobby integration itself. As a result, I myself imported the EE4-mod changes and provided the file to you, but still you sounded unsatisfied.
I understand that integration of UP1.5 Developers was a bit harder than UP1.4, but 1.5 had like 500+ more improvements than 1.4, so making a problem about 2 files that are needed to modify / configure was quite disappointing.
The most unpleasant moment was when you accused me of spying on users or having bad intentions, just because I guided you that the Statistics System should be enabled by default. The entire patch focuses on network-features such as the updates information, support chat and multiplayer integration. For this reason, I made some features such as DirectX 9 not to be available for users who disable the network integration. I even linked to you the statistics website: https://ee2.eu/statistics/ and provided information which details are exactly collected. They were also defined on the help page, so all users could read: https://ee2.eu/help/gdpr/
At that time, after knowing me for over 10 years you had doubts about my intentions towards the EE2 community. It's like a backstabbing, especially when it happened after few days of intensive discussions and help in finally integrating 1.5 to EE4 mod, so every user could enjoy the game with improved performance and compatibility with the newest OS versions.
After all, we apologized each other for "misunderstanding" and after all these years, the Developers Version of UP1.5 finally was available for the users. Unfortunately, even though I deeply explained how the statistics system works, you decided to release a version with it disabled by default. This resulted in disabled DirectX 9 by default, problems with multiplayers users validation. So the first impression was probably bad for the players, but whatever... I just let it be.

Since 1.5 Developers was finally included to EE4, I decided to become more active on EE4 Discord and provide support in case when problems were related to the patch. Although I was sure that there are no game-breaking changes included in Developers version, I wanted to make sure that everything is perfect. This is why when you contacted me about some crash on English version of EE4, I made a quick research using assembly, and I directed you that the problem is not patch related, but just a normal bug that can always happen while developing such advanced mods as EE4. I had no bad intentions and I was not trying to "show" my power to anyone. I just wrote on Discord channel what causes this problem and that it will be fixed soon. For some reasons it made you angry and posts were removed. Now you're saying that it's because this Discord was "more like a blog". This makes a total no sense, because then you could just set channels to be read-only by users. So you allowed users to write about the problems, but right after deleted their messages (and my answers)? Who on the earth manages services in this way?

Due to hard moments that I experienced at that time, I was extremely annoyed and decided not to keep the toxic contacts where I'm frequently accused of bad intentions, or where my position as EE2 contributor gets disrespected by removing the messages I write. For years I'm suffering severe anxiety attacks, and simple situations can make me feel very upset or quickly change me to take a defensive position, even though normal people would ignore them and simply break the contact.

This is why I decided that the further cooperation makes no sense, when the values I respect are being violated.

This topic is nesesery in order to explain to people what the situation is, and to make certain people stop asking me questions "why I don't help other modders". It's now much easier to send a link to the topic than explaining in short messages that for over 6 years I was indeed trying to help, but my help was firstly refused for long, and then I met many negativities and false accusations from people who should know best how hard and time consuming working on EE2 is. I will not mention that there was even such a pointless discussion started by you as "who does more for the EE2" or who's work is harder. These things are so vampiric for the motivation that sometimes it's just easier to disconnect myself the contact, than risk my mental health getting worse.

I have my own experience with the community. It is mostly from Russia. There are many trolls here, it is customary to scold for any trifle, to cling to any failure. One mistake - and you will be mixed with shit. And then prove that you are not guilty. That's why tough moderation and tough censorship. And the discord server is like a blog of one person. This is how I live, you could say. I hope you understand the attack of the trolls who cling to any failure of the mod-patcher, I think this is familiar to you.
I'm not too sure about it. What can you be guilty of when you're developing a game mod? Even if you have bugs in the final release, obviously nobody else is guilty than person working on it, but I think people have a lot of understanding and would never insult or "mix with shit" me for that. However, you might have a different experience than me, based on the region the mod is developed for. I must admit, that the only terrible experience with my work being insulted was actually from a Russian player "QWEEDDYZ" on the Gog forums: https://www.gog.com/forum/empire_earth_ ... _14/post48 he had a problem with the donation message (which obviously is needed to keep multiplayer server, relay servers, backup server running). But as it can be read, many players actually defended me, and he was the only one attacking with his nonsense. So yeah... I understand that if you had experience with people such as him, then things look way different.

However, I personally prefer a method where all negative messages towards me remain publicly visible. This way, more people can actually read what I have to suffer with, and many times other people would actually reply to defend my work. The other thing is that I'm actually very influential person myself, and when I see some bullshit posted about me, I can easily reveal all the hypocrisy and set things to the right order.
Yes, I was offended that you found the bug before me. With their amazing program. I will not hide. Happens. Creative people are emotional.
I actually wasn't aware of that. I thought that the problem was that it was me that guided certain players how to apply a quick fix and explained what the problem is... But now it makes it clearer that you prefer to work on the mod alone. I fully respect it. For the biggest part of UP1.5 development I was nearly alone, and only the last years I got a huge help from Loew who's now adding awesome in-game features.
If I insulted you, offended, belittled merits - I'm sorry. That's what I'm saying, I'm sorry. Straight and open. I will soon be 40 years old, I do not want to be in disagreement. And I don't want to be at odds.
Know that I always respected you for what you did for EE2. I still love this game, and I'm glad that Mona Lisa is doing EE2.
Thank you for the nice words. I hope they're honest this time. I also apologize for escalating things to the public forums, but I have always preferred this way than hiding the facts from the community.
Probably on this forum, the only way to talk to you. Others are not available to me.
I asked the guys from EE1 to convey to you my point of view on the war in Ukraine. I don't know, they told you. I dare say again. I am against the war, Mona!, I have always been against Putin, against the invasion of the Russian army into Ukraine. For me, the war is a tragedy. Many people from Ukraine helped to create EE4, I was friends with them a lot, and this war is now a big disaster. We here in Russia cannot protest. Our personal opinion is forbidden - a fine, deprivation of work, even a prison term. This is a big tragedy.
I'm happy that you're on the right side, however I personally wouldn't have a problem if you supported it. After all, many people in Russia are too brainwashed by the propaganda to know the truth about it. We can't really blame these people who are living in small villages, possibly still without access to bathroom that they believe in everything that propaganda says, and then join (forcefully or not) the army. It's a big problem in a country like Russia where many people live in an extreme poverty while their country is one of the biggest one rich in natural resources. Instead of developing the country and making it good for people, the country is robbed by oligarchs and a few big cities are awesome, while 80% of the other population has to work on them :/

I'm personally also trying to help inform people about the reality, therefore I created a special sanctions web page: https://ee2.eu/sanctions/?testip=true
Russian players who want to use our services need to read the message first. They're also fully informed that we're against this war, and that pro-war messages are not welcome on multiplayer, discord and forums.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains
These users thanked the author Dr.MonaLisa for the post:
Loewenherz
Post Reply

Return to “Gossips & other sh*t...”