"No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

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Dr.MonaLisa
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"No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa »

There's an important subject to discuss, and perhaps prepare some ministerial regulation.

In February 2020, when the taunts system was created, I've added the "no_rules" and "yes_rules" audio, to make it easier to signal host's decision.
The "yes_rules" taunt reads the following: "Rules: no spies, no nukes, no rams, no scout rush".

Earlier, in December 2018 a possibility to start game without the first scout was added:
https://ee2.eu/patch/changes/#157004
[157003 - 2018-12-11 - Type: Feature Update]:
— Added new "Starting Forces" -> "Basic" Citizens options: 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 50, 75, 100 with "no Scout" suffix.
* It allows you to start a game without the first Scout which was used for the abusive "Scout Glitch" in Multiplayer games.
* The player who hosts the Multiplayer game can now choose if "Scout Glitch" is allowed in his game by selecting the "no Scout" Basic Citizens option.

[157004 - 2019-01-10 - Type: Monthly Update]:
* Added an information if the "Scout Glitch" is allowed/legal or forbidden/illegal to the "Welcome Message" in Multiplayer Games. It depends if "Starting Forces" -> "Basic" citizens option has "no Scout" suffix selected by the host.
EE2_ScreenShot_2021-06-07_21.00.01.632.jpg
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EE2_ScreenShot_2021-06-07_21.00.37.429.jpg (94.2 KiB) Viewed 114 times

There recently were some misunderstandings regarding 1 scout use, when the scout was enabled on game start.

Theoretically, the "no scout rush" rule would disallow the first scout from being used to attack enemies. However, the Welcome Message that has priority over game rules - allows the scout glitch / scout trick, so possibly all of the scout actions should be considered as it.

I decided to create this topic to have some greater discussion, before we actually get some player report and won't know what decision to make.

My personal opinion on it, is the following:

- If scout is enabled:
* No_rules: It's allowed to attack with the first and all other scouts.
* Yes_rules: The first scout can be used to rush the enemy, but no more than 1 (this can be annoying in epochs 13+ where scouts have a range attack ability).

- If scout is disabled ("no scout" option in "Starting Forces" -> "Basic" Citizens):
* No_rules: it's illegal to produce a scout / scouts on game start to attack the enemy. It's also illegal to attempt to block enemy's buildings using the "scout trick". It is however still allowed to produce scouts for exploration purposes.
* Yes_rules: Same as above.


Please let me know what you guys think about it.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains

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IndieRock00
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by IndieRock00 »

I'm agree
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Tedere
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Tedere »

I've heard the complaints regarding the aggressive use of the scout, usually referring to using the starting scout to harass the starting citizens. But I don't think this slight inconvenience at best (which can turn into a disadvantage to the attacker if he loses his scout) can justify ruling attacking with starting scout out. Granted, the scout can be effective at denying some forward buildings early on (think forward CC or outposts) but that's not a reason to ban scout attack either, since citizens could be used for the same purpose.
So to summarize, no I don't agree with aggressive use of starting scout being prohibited in normal games, the player(s) complaining over it don't like the game not being played on their own terms, but I don't think anyone should compromise with playing on their terms either, if there's no justification behind their demand.

I also want to mention that I don't think the use of multiple scouts to rush is some kind of game breaking strategy either, it's more of a cheesy rush that will most likely lose you the game, but since it's been agreed between the community members as "not fair-play" I won't object it's ban from regular games.

To close this reply, I think it should go as the following:
* No_rules: It's allowed to attack with the first and all other scouts.
* Yes_rules: The first scout can be used to rush the enemy, but no more than 1.
but without the separation between the enabled/disabled starting scout option, as I think it further complicates the game rules for no good reason.
Kiffke
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Kiffke »

- If scout is enabled:
* No_rules: It's allowed to attack with the first and all other scouts.
* Yes_rules: The first scout can be used to rush the enemy, but no more than 1 (this can be annoying in epochs 13+ where scouts have a range attack ability).

AGREE

* No_rules: it's illegal to produce a scout / scouts on game start to attack the enemy. It's also illegal to attempt to block enemy's buildings using the "scout trick". It is however still allowed to produce scouts for exploration purposes.

DISAGREE because NO rules mean No rules at all in my understanding
KennetRP
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by KennetRP »

Disagree! This is how I view it since the term "scout rush" doesn't specify it has to be multiple scouts to be rushing the enemy player:

- If scout is enabled:
* No_rules: everything is allowed (duh!)
* Yes_rules: starting scout is for exploration only, no rushing (i.e. attacking in early game) with it unless accompanied by one or more military units

- If scout is disabled:
* No_rules: everything is allowed (duh!), otherwise it's not really "no rules game", the only catch if you want to scout rush is you have to produce it yourself, which is a risk you'll have to consider if it's worth taking (as you will have to wait longer for the next citizen to spawn)
* Yes_rules: same as if starting scout is enabled

The scout glitch is not the same as scout rush. If the message says the scout glitch is legal, then by all means abuse it. That's not what I take issue with, only the scout rush.
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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa »

Generally Kennet might be right, and that's why I made the audio to be "no scout rush" instead of "no scouts rush".

The rules have been created in order to make games last longer and the regular army being used. Units included in "yes_rules" are not necessary OP as Tedere mentioned. The real "scouts rush" might be dangerous when it's a well-organized team that decides to triple with them. I know that the current Multiplayer community's skills make me sound as I lived on the Moon and don't know what's going on on the Earth. But those are the things to consider and understand too.

One of the problems with using the first scout in "yes_rules" game is that the enemy might double / triple with scouts. Then it becomes scouts rush fully, but every player thinks that didn't break the rule because only used their starting scout...

The next problem is: How to explain to the "old" players, who played the game for over 10 years (e.g. R_Empire) that they need to stop using their first scout now in "yes_rules" game? Because we can create a new "law" and setup everything, but that won't make such players change the strategies they learnt... So we would rather need to create rules based on the current standards and possibilities.

I was thinking about adding separate taunts for: "no_nukes", "no_rams" etc, but then I realized that it would be much harder to remember before game start. So at the end I resigned from the idea of separating rules...

Let's see what other players think about it, before we attempt to regulate it on the Departmental level.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains
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Matty
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Matty »

There would be many things to say on the matter...

First of all I feel like all of scout exploits are overrated because they are not as "game changing" as spies and rams.
Multiple scout rush is the only scout-related thing that can be game changing, but it is a trash strategy if it is spotted before by opponent's scout.
Even if a team regroups all scouts to attack a single player of the opposite team they generally lose vision on other players. Not just this but they need to be well coordinated in order to kill citizens fastly, attacking the same citizen (and more than 5 scouts are needed to oneshot a citizen, so most likely someone has to produce additional scouts over citizens, which is not a great thing).

I wouldnt set limits to scout "full usage" because it adds another skill layer that over the years has been lost: players must be good to manage own eco and at the same time to damage opponent's eco or to scout trick him. Maybe I'd just keep multiple scout rush banned because noobs are not good to spot it before and because it can actually be tricky to spot it if you cant have vision on all opponents.
Not setting limits to scout "full usage" would not just unlock a new/old skill layer said before but would also fix the problem that certain players like Tedere or R_Empire, who attack with the scout, have the advantage to start attacking before, getting to the following common scenario:

My scout gets to opponent's terr before than the opponent's and I could attack but I don't because the general sense is that I am not supposed to. Some seconds later opponent's scout gets to my terr and my citiziens are getting attacked, maybe while i'm focused on something else. Only at that point I start attacking back with my scout but it is still annoying because not only I could attack before but it is mentally heavier to adapt to opponent's rythm: it's mentally easier to start attacking with scout once you get to enemy's terr when you don't have other stuff to do than answering back at the time your opponent wants. It's not really a big deal, and that's why I won't say anything when this common thing happens, but at higher levels this small overload might be a reason to get distracted and delay some important tasks that can make the difference in the early game.

Anyways, this is how I would do it:

SCOUT ENABLED:
NO RULES: Literally no rules.
YES RULES: Multiple scout rush not allowed.

SCOUT DISABLED:
NO RULES: Literally no rules.
YES RULES: Multiple scout rush not allowed.
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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa »

First of all I feel like all of scout exploits are overrated because they are not as "game changing" as spies and rams.
I disagree. The scout glitch / scout trick was extremely game changing, casing many problems and annoyance in the past. Sorry to bring the example:
https://youtu.be/opUDKS9Ezac?t=173

It was before UP1.5 tweaks which added the "spy" behaviour to scouts (forcing them to move out automatically, like spies).
SCOUT ENABLED:
NO RULES: Literally no rules.
YES RULES: Multiple scout rush not allowed.

SCOUT DISABLED:
NO RULES: Literally no rules.
YES RULES: Multiple scout rush not allowed.
Generally, if the starting Scout is disabled, it's unlikely that someone will produce a new one. However, if this happened, and the scout rush affected building on the enemy territory - that would be breaking the "no scout glitch" rule.

What if in "YES RULES", 2 (or more) different players attack 1 player with the scout? This is a multiple scouts rush on that player, but none of attackers commits the crime... In this case, the real "no scout" rule allows players in game to relax as they prefer to do, instead of getting fked on game start, lose the whole sense of playing and quit.

Generally, I'm still not sure what's better for it :D
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains
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Matty
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Matty »

I think every small detail can be game changing at higher levels in that sense, but for game changing i mean something that makes the game completely different, and scout trick is at most a stolen territory, which sucks against good players, but game itself does not really change like in the spy battles or ram battles in no rules games
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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: "No scout rush" rule. Does it affect games where scout is enabled on game start?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa »

Matty wrote: 10 Jun 2021, 21:43 I think every small detail can be game changing at higher levels in that sense, but for game changing i mean something that makes the game completely different, and scout trick is at most a stolen territory, which sucks against good players, but game itself does not really change like in the spy battles or ram battles in no rules games
Well, I remember many negative things about the scout glitch. In fair, small 5-5 map, someone who was using the scout pretty well could box you and leave with ~3 terrs (of course depending on the map). Since you've already spent time trying to get terrs, your rush couldn't be as effective as if it was planned since the beginning. Not to mention that some players dislike to rush at all.

The scout glitch could damage the rated fast pace games pretty bad (unrated too). I personally was quite good at using the scout, but I understood feedback from the other players regarding this thing. I usually side with weaker players (and their rights), and I understood the scout glitch problem pretty well. Since the "no scout" option was added, I didn't see fast-quitting 5-5 games, nor many negative emotions after loses.

Another thing is, that people who decide to play with ceasefire (5 minutes usually) prefer the non-combat playing style for the first minutes in order to develop their economy, army production. Scout glitch is some kind of attack that requires the player to delete city centers, sometimes causes accidental citizens deletion (like when construction site is not selected). In my opinion all this was like cheating on the ceasefire time. If players liked the fast-attack then they would host games without the ceasefire.

But OK, the scout glitch / trick thing is solved since we have got the "no scout" option available. And even when it's enabled it's way less dangerous than before some UP1.5 update. Scouts don't longer block the area where you're planning to place the city center, and if you start the construction - they are leaving the area automatically, so the enemy has to be keep spamming or setting the "patrol" in order to continue blocking.

However, the Welcome Message could be tweaked. It could be like "Scout Glitch and Rush: forbidden / illegal", and "Scout Glitch and Rush: allowed / illegal".

This way, using the first scout in 99% of r-r games would be legal as most of "old-school" players prefer, and players like Kennet wouldn't have a legal basics to cry about getting attacked by the first scout.

However, this thing would also mean that if the scout was disabled, then in "no rules" games, using the first-produced scout would also be disallowed. But then, why would someone how a game without the first scout if prefers "no rules"? So that problem is theoretical but not practical.

O_O

Maybe we need someone else to make a good summary of it and propose the right decision...
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains
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