Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa » 06 Jan 2019, 11:33

1) how many are pro and against this measure (criterium of quantity) ; 2) which reactions are caused by using or not scouts (criterium of consequence) ; 3) whats our purpose on prohibiting or not scouts (criterium of teleology) ; 4) What was written/regulated about this subject so far? (criterium of gramatical/legal historicity) ; 5) which are our current social/psychological conditions and situations for this to be needed to happen and regulate? (criterium of social historicity) ; 6) which are the other people opinions about this subject? (criterium of quality) ; 7) whats the morality and fairness behind so? (criterium of justice) ; 8) what are our possible dos and don'ts in such a case? (criterium of deontology) and at last 9) whats the logic of a regulating? (criterium of validity).

For that reason, I must for now waive temporarily my responsability to judge this case as a minister in order to obtain more needed information for a future better decisory opinion, endorsing what was already came up with by our rapporteur on case Sir minister of game affairs Dr.MonaLisa. Until there, I sincerely hope everybody gives your valuable and needed contribution.
With all respect to your Department, this is the actual discussion topic, not the Act project itself.
In short to your questions:
- We will know how many players like/dislike/want to use the scout glitch based on posts in this topic.
- There is no Act currently being processed. When we will see all opinions, then we will start working on it. In the past we used the "Word Online" document (on OneDrive now) where all ministers could edit the Act and leave comments "live". I also think when we finish the discussion there will be not much doubts between Ministers. This Act will be prepared based on other players needs.
Although it makes sense, I don't agree with that because I haven't learned anything about its importance for balance between players - it's quite the opposite, I am TOTALLY against this as a way of unbalancing and demeriting other good players skills. Today I am forced to face 2, 3 and even 4 players at once for more than 30-50 minutes without using crowns and I feel myself obliged to make population bigger (to my own and others disgust) to re-balance it again. Or then, today it is all about timeline... before army timeline wasn't all that important provided that we can win in the end, but now it is - either you get an excellent army and building or you will lose and this makes precisely my point because new players will NEVER reach good timelines. Anyway that's completely another story out of topic...
Who forces you to press the ready button? Have you actually tried to ask host to enable crowns? I'm pretty sure I seen active players using them last month. Usually the good players (who used crowns in the past) are those who host games. Are they forced to do it as well?
Talking about the balance, it must be some kind of joke. Most of EE1 players hate EE2 because of crowns and their weird powers.
Now, how you want to win a game facing 3 other players with crowns enabled? They have a possibility to spam way more universities and separate crowns between them 3. It's then impossible to win, especially when they all attack at the same time. Also starting the discussion about the "balance" and giving 1v3 as argument is some kind of pathology. Fair teams (this is 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 5v5) have always been used in 99% of all games.
And one more thing, with range glitch fixed imperial crown power gives too big advantage. Enemy army would die from crown owner's catapults before could reach their attack range. If that's what you call skill (and not moving army from different directions to kill catapults first, managing economy, building speed, etc.) then we know two different definitions of this word.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains


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TheGrouchDE
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by TheGrouchDE » 06 Jan 2019, 11:34

I think it's better to be banned. For the simple reason that it's outbalancing the games a lot. And many know that having enough city centers to get a good economy started is very important And that's not even exaggerated as i saw many games which were quickly over because someone got scout glitched. Some even leave the game after that. In that case, it's either use the scout glitch as well to minimize the damage caused by that or your game will be pretty much over as you already started. And to be honest, i hate the idea of literally everyone using the scout glitch.

Greetings
TheGrouchDE

Department of Modding and Testing

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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa » 06 Jan 2019, 11:48

TheGrouchDE wrote:
06 Jan 2019, 11:34
I think it's better to be banned. For the simple reason that it's outbalancing the games a lot. And many know that having enough city centers to get a good economy started is very important And that's not even exaggerated as i saw many games which were quickly over because someone got scout glitched. Some even leave the game after that. In that case, it's either use the scout glitch as well to minimize the damage caused by that or your game will be pretty much over as you already started. And to be honest, i hate the idea of literally everyone using the scout glitch.

Greetings
And that's what used to happen before Scout Glitch fixes in 2017/2018.
First example:


As we can see player A scout glitchs player B who has way less territories and is placed on the North (which usually has big territories). It's not used to defend from terrs-grabbing, but to make the game even more ruined for player B.

Second example (from 2011):


Two games ruined by me with a scout.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but before 2017 we had like 90% more games where players quit before 5 minute of the game.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains

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Tojo
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Tojo » 06 Jan 2019, 12:19

Correct me if I'm wrong, but before 2017 we had like 90% more games where players quit before 5 minute of the game.
Quick example from yesterday: I played a 4v4 game and was facing Cata. There was hard territory fight. On first terr I used 3 citizens to build CC but lost, on terr next to it used 2 citizens and lost. I asked him how many citizens he used, answer: 4. And I was like... OK i lost fair fight, lets move on, he must have some skills to gather just enough ressources without 4 citizens. If that would happen (him to win 2 territories) even with legalised scout trick, I would be too pissed of to continue playing.

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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa » 06 Jan 2019, 13:16

Good example, Tojo.

Here's another topic to read: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=435

I actually forgot about arguments from the past. Seems like the main reason of legalizing it were OTHER GLITCHES. People used to resource glitch as a reply to the Scout Trick. So basically the legalization act was made to prevent other glitches as the "answer". However, with UP1.5 the situation is a bit different, because resources glitch has been fixed, so there is no way to "glitch back". That again brings me the opinion that maybe just host should decide about it, by enabling or disabling the scout using new Starting Citizens options :/
Theoretically the problem doesn't exist now (based on other posts of different players in this topic):
- If someone is hosting the game with the Scout enabled, other players can ask to change it and may not press the ready button.
- If someone hates the Scout glitch, can leave the room and host a new game.
- EE2.eu Lobby allows 100% of players to connect (thanks to MonaNAT), so it shouldn't matter who hosts the game anymore.
- It's potentially easy to notice if Scout Glitch is allowed or not, because the Scout will appear near City Center (additionally a Welcome message can be added).
- Most of players dislike the Scout Glitch, so this option might get adapted by itself like the "Disable Crowns System and Leaders".
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains

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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa » 11 Jan 2019, 07:47

Hi.

Yesterday I released a Minor Update [157004] containing the following change:
* Added an information if the "Scout Glitch" is allowed/legal or forbidden/illegal to the "Welcome Message" in Multiplayer Games. It depends if "Starting Forces" -> "Basic" citizens option has "no Scout" suffix selected by the host.
The following screenshots show how it looks in game:
EE2_ScreenShot504.jpg
EE2_ScreenShot504.jpg (339.27 KiB) Viewed 281 times
EE2_ScreenShot505.jpg
EE2_ScreenShot505.jpg (339.33 KiB) Viewed 281 times
So basically, for now we have a freedom of choice.
If you do not like the Scout Glitch and the Host refuses to change to the "no scout" option - please leave the room. I am sure more players dislike it, and those who like will change their minds once they have nobody to play with.

The new message should also prevent issues where the "no scout" option is selected and a player intentionally produces a Scout (instead of the first citizen) to glitch. Due that it's clearly shown that it's "illegal" in the current game - the Ministry of Game Affairs can punish players who bypass this limitation.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains

ROshamBO33
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by ROshamBO33 » 24 Jan 2019, 05:39

It's a difficult probelm and I'm grateful for how much effort Dr. Mona and company have put into coming up with a solution.

I did not realize the performance degredation problems that occured with scout "glitch" fixes in the past.

Personally, I believe scouts are an integral part of the game and when I host, I have never used the "no scout" option. However, I'm not a fan of the scout "glitch".

lukwerty makes a good point when it comes to letting norms dictate the game. Just as spy rush in med pacec is considered cowardly by some and skillful by others - the scout "glitch" has been a part of the game. I'm no fan of spy rush or scout "glitch" however, I will use either in the right circumstance, if not forbidden, because in EE2 as in poker, you learn to play your opponent not your hand. Although, I do feel like the scout "glitch" is a bit like holding an ACE under the table.

I hope an agreeable solution can be found.

I don't think making it standard to start without a scout is ideal.

The only far fetched solution I propse is this - make scouts permanently set to ceasefire settings, however extend the scout cease fire boundaries to any territory immediately contacting any enemy territory - that way they can never be in a territory that an enemy is trying to build a cc (at least a relevant cc). Probably will encounter the same performance problems though...

Best,
ROshamBO33

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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa » 28 Jan 2019, 05:08

ROshamBO33, thank you for your opinion.
The only far fetched solution I propse is this - make scouts permanently set to ceasefire settings, however extend the scout cease fire boundaries to any territory immediately contacting any enemy territory - that way they can never be in a territory that an enemy is trying to build a cc (at least a relevant cc). Probably will encounter the same performance problems though...
The actual problem is, I don't have the source code of game. Any fix requires really hard modding on game files and assembly of the game process itself.
This is the reason why there were so many anti-scout-glitch solutions and none of them was perfect.
Similar case with the ceasefire. Only finding where the ceasefire time is stored would take hours/days. That's why it complicates things.

Let's observe for a few more weeks/months how the Scout system is used on EE2. It's hard to create the Act now, when we don't have much data for analyzes.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains

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Dr.MonaLisa
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Dr.MonaLisa » 01 Mar 2019, 19:10

Few questions regarding the new Anti-Scout-Glitch method ("no scout" option) after 2 months:

- To Department of Propaganda:
Do players complain about playing with the "no scout" option? How many hosts decide to use this option? Is players reaction mostly positive or negative when this option is used? If negative, please list nicknames and Department of Control will contact those players directly.

- To Department of Justice (after analyze from the Department of Propaganda):
Does Department think the new Scout-Glitch regulations Act is needed and should be proceed by the Ministry, or the current methods don't cause any confusions and the Act is not needed?

- To Vice President TheGrouch from Department of Mods:
Based on feedback from two Departments, please decide if we should start proceeding the new Amending Act to regulate "No Scout" option usage rules or remit this case.

Answers don't need to be long, although more details we get, less doubts we have.
Best regards,
Dr.MonaLisa
Ministry of Game Affairs
Department of Control and Complains

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Tojo
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Re: Neverending Story - Scout Glitch / Trick. What's your opinion about it?

Post by Tojo » 04 Mar 2019, 22:48

Here is the answer from my side:

In fast pace there is almost 100% of the game launched with "no scout" option. Sometimes I did notice if the game was hosted by inexperienced host, he forgot to set this option. But it was corrected without complains after someone reminded to do so.
Of course scout is still used medium pace games and it is right.

I did not see any of the player complaining about no scout present in fast pace. Even the players who handled scout trick pretty well does not complain about it. The opposite: If they express an opinion its a positive one.
One of the players said: "It is the best solution possible"

To be honest, such a positive response surprised me.

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